Being a Work In Progress & Challenging Expectations // with Julia Marie Hogan Werner

[00:00:00] Julia Hogan Werner: expectations - they're taking us down this path. Right. And we're just sort of like being carried along in the current without taking that step back to say, wait a second. Do I believe this? And if I do. I keep going, but if I don't, I have this invitation and this opportunity now to reshape the way I approach things and the way I make decisions and what I said as a priority in my life and the people I allow in my life or the energy I put towards things and people, all of those things.

[00:00:28] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hello. And welcome to know them. Be them, raise them a show to help busy, mindful, and growth oriented moms stand formed and inspired as they navigate their daughter's tween and teen years with most episodes running 20 minutes or less. I'm your host Carmelita two. As you may recall from previous episodes about self care, boundaries and cognitive distortions. 

[00:00:53] Julia Hogan is a therapist, author, and speaker with a mission to help people lead fuller and more authentic lives every day. 

[00:01:01] I invited Julia back to tell us a little bit about her new book, a work in progress, embracing the life God gave you, and discuss challenging expectations, which is one of her favorite topics. While her book is not aimed at moms specifically, the lessons are really applicable to anyone looking to lead a meaningful life. 

[00:01:19] Also stick around till the end to hear how you can win a signed copy of the book and an adorable work in progress. Sweatshirt. 

[00:01:27] Here's our chat. 

[00:01:31] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: So let's kick it off Julia, with what inspired you to write this book, and what do you hope readers get from it?

[00:01:39] Julia Hogan Werner: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much for all of your support and your enthusiasm, because. A book it's such a long writing process where, you know, I think I started writing it in 2019 and then finished it during the pandemic. And then, you know, the publication date got delayed. 

[00:01:55] Uh, so having everybody be so supportive and excited about it has really just been, honestly, a gift because it's so much behind the scenes work. So now to be able to share it and celebrate it with everybody has been really, really fun.

[00:02:09] so as far as like my inspiration, I think that. I was really thinking about all of the things that my eyes were open to both in grad school and then also just in my work with my clients and in my own personal life and things that, you know, for example, learning about boundaries, nobody had ever used that word before until I heard about it, I think honestly, after grad school and, you know, learning more about therapy and, coming across some really good books and stuff, and the more that I learned, the more I just realized this is incredibly valuable. And I can't believe that I didn't learn about it until my mid twenties. And. People need to know about this. And I wish that it had been something I had learned in school.

[00:02:57] I wish that there had been more of that, like social, emotional learning, even in high school, you know I felt like I missed out on some of the more life skills you could call them, you know, what goes into your entire life.

[00:03:09] Setting the stage so that you're living a meaningful, authentic life. And even if you're still figuring things out, you have those tools and you have a sense of purpose of where am I going in the midst of all of this, right.

[00:03:20] Rather than saying my whole worth is defined by my career or what my major is or what my a C T score is. right.

[00:03:29] So this book really, for me, was assembling all of these skills that I wish I had learned about that I found incredibly valuable both in my life, but also in my work with my clients and things that I think anybody can use at any point in your life. And they don't require any kind of special training or equipment or anything, right.

[00:03:51] That you can start implementing and practicing these things right away. 

[00:03:56] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: That's one thing I noticed about the structure of the book was at the end of every chapter, there are some reflection questions and some action items that, really felt doable and, and didn't feel overly technical, but also weren't too obvious.

[00:04:14] I just appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into the nudges, as well as the, thought provoking questions. I thought that was a wonderful way to kind of structure it, um, to both encourage reflection, but also give people some ideas as to how they could implement it.

[00:04:30] Julia Hogan Werner: I'm so glad you noticed cause that's actually something I'm like particularly passionate about is making sure that concepts that can seem abstract are brought down to like real world, real person, how can I apply this in my own life? When I was in grad school, we would be learning all these theories and the history of something and all this research. right. That's showing you, um, you know, percentages and error and variance and all of that. And I remember having this tension, my mind of wait, but how does this apply to the average person?

[00:05:02] How do we take this data or this statistic and how does it show up in you know, the average person's life. How do I translate it? So anything, whether I'm writing articles or my last book on this book too, I really try to make sure that there's some kind of actionable step to it so like you can take the Baton and run the next leg of that. 

[00:05:24] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: That's that's a great metaphor. Yes. You're not just like, here's all this knowledge and then drop the mic. Like you 

[00:05:30] Julia Hogan Werner: Of luck. 

[00:05:31] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Yeah, right. Well, um, one of the topics I really enjoyed stumbling upon and, and was really excited to see you address was Challenging Expectations because to your point about not knowing, uh, not even questioning some of the things that you're taught to value and strive for in, in high school, college.

[00:05:54] I mean, even in law school, I remember, everyone wanted to be top 10%. If you weren't in the top 10% and you didn't get one of those big law firm offers, there was a lot of, reassuring yourself and morale building, because we were all kind of feeling sorry for ourselves. 

[00:06:09] So that whole chapter, I'd love to hear you explain a little bit about why you included it. Um, yeah. 

[00:06:17] Julia Hogan Werner: It is one of my favorite topics. One of my favorite chapters in the book, obviously I'm passionate about all of those topics, but I think this one for whatever reason is more like near and dear to my heart. Some of the other skills that I talk about in the different chapters, I think require a little bit more introspection or, are more of a process, right? but I think challenging expectations is one that as soon as you can start recognizing these expectations and really examining them, you can have an easy win for making a change in your life.

[00:06:51] So I think it's a really good, like if you wanna, you know, hit the ground running with something, this would be the chapter to go to, because I think it just applies to so many different areas of life.

[00:07:02] But to your point, like you were saying with law school, right.

[00:07:05] We have these expectations, whether they're internal or they're set up in a structure as an institution, or as a profession like law school or law in general. And we just take these expectations and we adopt them without evaluating them.

[00:07:23] And then we live our life according to those expectations. right,

[00:07:26] So like you were saying the expectation that in order to be a quote unquote, good lawyer, you need to be in the top 10%. 

[00:07:33] Or whatever, that message might be in all of that. And to adopt that expectation then means that your self worth is tied to your ranking.

[00:07:43] Your self worth is tied to what job you're getting or not getting. Right? but Also how many hours I'm investing in, my health or my emotional wellbeing, my mental wellbeing, managing stress, spending time with other people, um, you know, decisions I'm making about the rest of my, like my career path, but also long term relationships, things like that, you know?

[00:08:05] Um, All influenced by these expectations that if we don't challenge them, they're taking us down this path. Right. And we're just sort of like being carried along in the current without taking that step back to say, wait a second. Do I believe this? And if I do. I keep going, but if I don't, I have this invitation and this opportunity now to reshape the way I approach things and the way I make decisions and what I said as a priority in my life and the people I allow in my life or the energy I put towards things and people, all of those things.

[00:08:38] Um, so it's recognizing those expectations and then evaluating them and giving myself that gift of making a decision about how I wanna handle or respond to them. 

[00:08:49] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Hmm. As you were talking, I was also thinking about how often motherhood and the roles that parents take on are so fraught with expectations. And like you were saying, If you don't stop to challenge them and think about where do these come from. You could get swept up into kind of so much, there's just so much, uh, that comes along with being a parent , um, yeah, it can be overwhelming.

[00:09:17] Uh, do you have advice on how moms or readers can help identify those expectations so then they can choose whether to keep carrying them or let them go?

[00:09:30] Julia Hogan Werner: Yes. Yes.

[00:09:31] That's a great question. I think in the book, I talk about some common patterns. So things like, if you find yourself using the word, should. A lot. So I should have figured this out by now, or I should be able to handle my toddler, even though I've literally never raised a toddler in my life or now I have to, I should know how to help my daughter navigate her first relationship or her first breakup, even if you've never done it before.

[00:10:03] And so if you find yourself using that word should, and it's, it's. Um, trying to think of a good word here. I was gonna say triggering, and I wanna think of a different word, but I can't Right.

[00:10:15] now so we'll just go with it. You know what I mean? Um, but if that kind of brings about, or brings to the surface feelings of guilt or shame, Right, That that might be a sign that that expectation is not really setting you up for success. Um, and I wanna say too, that it's not just, We're not talking about just being like relative right, And saying, oh, set, whatever expectations you want for yourself. What I'm really saying is we set these shoulds, or always and never type of statements for ourselves and they're not based on reality. right. Like to say, I should have all this mom stuff figured out, even though every child is different and you know, some resources are helpful for some kids and some aren't. Why should you, what expect like where that expectation is not realistic? I will always lead to failure or will always feel very, I would say like tenuous, like, okay.

[00:11:11] So I did okay. In this. Example or this experience, but there's always another one where I might quote, unquote fail. And then, you know, where will I be if I'm saying, you know, being a good bomb is handling every situation, perfectly like an expert. Right.

[00:11:27] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: right.

[00:11:28] Julia Hogan Werner: so should definitely, or I would say any kind of all or enough thing or black and white.

[00:11:35] Type of statements, right? So a good mom never makes mistakes or a good mom always knows what to do in these situations or, um, You know, um, probably could think of some other examples, but I think just that idea of no room for, you know, it's okay if I don't have the answers or I trust myself to do the research and figure out what's best for my child or I trust my intuition or I have my support network here.

[00:12:05] It doesn't have to just be per effect or failure. Right. 

[00:12:08] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Mm-hmm mm-hmm 

[00:12:09] Julia Hogan Werner: that's where I think a lot of expectations center around is like, perfect is my, is how I

[00:12:15] if I'm perfect, then I know I'm okay. 

[00:12:17] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:12:18] Julia Hogan Werner: then I never make a mistake and I don't have to, um, navigate that sort of like messiness complexity of, we do some things we do well, and sometimes we mess up and that's just part of being human. 

[00:12:31] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Right, I like how you pointed out how unrealistic it is for moms to think that they should be able to navigate motherhood and parenting smoothly the entire time, because like you said, chances are. A, you've never done it before. If this is your first kid or, and B, even if it is your second or third or fifth kid, every kid is different.

[00:12:53] So how in the world can we expect ourselves to kind of have this, um, high baseline of perfection, when what we're coming to the table with and, and who's showing up in our life. Like that's, that's totally different every time. It, yeah.

[00:13:10] Julia Hogan Werner: Right. Yeah, I would

[00:13:13] agree. yeah. I think it is important because there is, you know, um, Like, we're just surrounded with all these messages. Right? And so from moms, there's a lot of, uh, I guess people giving their own opinions about what you should or shouldn't do, and that might be family members or friends.

[00:13:32] And it might also be people you see on social media, right. Where, oh, this is how I handle things. My family looks like It's, perfect. And so this is the, the only way to do things or why can't I be like them? Um, you know, so those expectations, I think can really. Like they hold us back. 

[00:13:50] And that's the whole point of the book is helping you to be the most authentic version of yourself and these expectations hold you back because we don't even realize it, right. So it's like a setting yourself free when you realize these things and you can say. Yes, every child is different. Um, even the most experienced mom is gonna face a situation where she's gonna have to, figure things out or have a situation she's never encountered before.

[00:14:17] And that's not a sign of failure. That's just a sign of life is complicated. it's like ever changing, right?

[00:14:25] And then I know that. , you know, cat, you talk a lot about just moms taking care of their own wellbeing or going through their own healing in order to be a better mom and a better parent to their child.

[00:14:38] And I think that really speaks too to those expectations, right? That like, if I'm healing from my own like generational trauma, or if I'm healing from my own wounds or I'm trying to, you know, Find a different way of being in relationships or whatever that there's going to be mistakes made, or there's going to be good moments and the mistakes don't invalidate the good it's just, again that like, we're all just trying to do the best we can and, and figure things out as we go. Right. 

[00:15:10] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Yes, 

[00:15:11] Julia Hogan Werner: And we need that grace. And I think that, you know, expectations, especially the, in particular like the, the faulty ones, which is what I'm talking about in the book, those don't leave room for grace and compassion, right? 

[00:15:25] It's that all, or nothing, success or failure, perfect or failure, rather than that, you know, kind of, um, time where we can model taking responsibility for our own mistakes to our 

[00:15:38] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:15:39] Julia Hogan Werner: to say, you know what? I let my emotions get the best of me. I'm really sorry, you know, can you forgive me, um, for that?

[00:15:46] And here's how I'm gonna try to do better next time. 

[00:15:49] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: yes. It's like you are replaying two days ago. for the listeners. I almost literally had that conversation because like you said, you know, it's complicated and we just do the best we can.

[00:16:02] Julia Hogan Werner: Yes. Yeah. And like moms are humans too, 

[00:16:06] you know, like I think that we're all mul multifaceted, but especially moms can get really pigeonholed into that mom identity. I think it's important to model that whole person to your daughter is in your sons as well. That whole, um, You know, I am, I'm trying to take care of myself too.

[00:16:25] I'm trying to, I'm always learning or yeah, I don't have everything. 

[00:16:30] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Right. Right. And I think too, normalizing this idea that people evolve, people change and people aren't fixed at a certain age. Cuz I think, you know, for better or for worse, that's a little bit of what the, the vision I had when I was 18.

[00:16:47] I sort of thought when I am 24, I will look like this. And then when I'm 30 here's how it's gonna be, and it's gonna be some version of that for the rest of my life. So yeah, trying to normalize that evolution , which is partly why the work in progress title of your book is really lovely is, it encourages and, and makes that, okay.

[00:17:08] It's not an aberration, it's not an anomaly. It's not something to feel bad about. It's we are all works in progress and, and so embrace that and. Let's figure it out together and be fine with figuring it out.

[00:17:23] Julia Hogan Werner: Yeah.

[00:17:24] And I have to say, I did not come up with the title, my editor and, um, her team did. And when they shared the title with me, it just, I felt like it would just perfectly describe the book. Um, you know, it just, it felt like all these puzzle pieces clicked into place and I saw it and I thought, oh my gosh. Yes.

[00:17:41] absolutely. Right. Because. Our work in progress is I would say a descriptive term, but it is something that I think we often use to say, like, I'm a mess or as an apology, right. I'm, I'm a work in progress. Like

[00:17:57] I'm not where I wanna be. And I think the book is really trying to take that definition and put a different spin on it and say, this is, is just a way of describing life.

[00:18:08] Right? We're constantly figuring things out and we're constantly recalibrating, but to know. Kind of what your personal ingredients are to living a purposeful and authentic life. That's the most important thing, because if you are. If you are living your life, according to those values and priorities in your life, then your life's gonna be meaningful no matter what you're

[00:18:31] going through. And, you know, to your point, we can have goals and we can have an idea of where we want to be, but stuff happens, right. I mean, like the past two years have definitely like taught us that like, and, you know, you can go home from work one day and say like, great, um, you know, see you on Monday. And then all of a sudden you're working from home for two years. Right. 

[00:18:51] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Yeah. well, Julia, thank you so much. Tell us where we can find your book, which comes out today. March 22nd.

[00:19:01] Julia Hogan Werner: yes. So you can order it on Amazon. There's a paperback and a Kindle version, so you can order it there. If you're interested in a signed copy, you can always order from my website. So if you just go to juliamariehogan.Com and click on the shop page, it should be the first listing there.

[00:19:19] So I sign it and I send it out and include some fun stickers in there too. if you're a sticker person, um, or if you're girls are sticker girls, then I can include some in there. Um, and then also get it at, Our Sunday Visitor's website as well. 

[00:19:33] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu: Wonderful. Well, everyone go and check it out. Um, it's, it's wonderful to be validated as a work in progress.

[00:19:42] Julia Hogan Werner: Amen to that. 

[00:19:44] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thanks so much to Julia for sharing the backstory of her new book, showing us how expectations sneak in at every stage of life and diving into the importance of challenging them. 

[00:19:58] Here are a few quick learnings that I had. Number one. Two ways to identify faulty or unhealthy expectations that are floating around in your life. 

[00:20:07] First, if you're using the word should a lot, like, I should know how to do this. And it brings up feelings of guilt or shame. That's often a sign that, that expectation isn't setting you up for success. Another is if you find yourself using always and never or black and white type statements, like a good mom, never loses her temper. Those don't leave room for grace or compassion and set you up for failure. Number two, remind yourself that life is complicated. And modeling your whole self mistakes and all to your daughters and sons is an important gift. 

[00:20:46] Showing them that you don't have everything figured out. that it can be a struggle to grow and evolve. 

[00:20:51] Tells them that it's okay for them to do that too. 

[00:20:56] Number three. Let's normalize the idea that people evolve and change throughout their whole lives. We're constantly figuring things out and recalibrating. And as long as you know, what your values and priorities are and let them guide you, then your life will be meaningful no matter where you land. 

[00:21:13] To learn more about Julia and her books, you can visit her website, again that's juliamariehogan.Com and follow her on Instagram @juliahoganlpc. Those links are in the show notes. And my previous podcast episodes with her are also linked there as well. 

[00:21:29] Also Julia has graciously offered to co-host a giveaway to celebrate the release of her new book, a work in progress. One lucky winner will get a signed copy of her book as well as a charming sweatshirt that says work in progress on it. They're super cute. Check out our Instagram @juliahoganlpc and @knowberaisethem on March 24th, 2022. 

[00:21:54] When the entry window opens. There'll be a post that explains everything 

[00:21:59] A huge. Thanks for listening. I'm honored and humbled to share a portion of your day with you. If you found something helpful or insightful. Remember to subscribe or follow, please tell a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify. 

[00:22:14] Again, grateful for you. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.