Defying Diet Culture & Making Peace With Your Body // with Debbie Saroufim

[00:00:00] Debbie Saroufim: Feeling like your body is broken isn't a symptom of your body being broken, feeling like your body is broken, is a symptom of this very, very, very broken culture that we're living in.

[00:00:13] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hello all! I'm Carmelita Tiu and welcome to Know Them Be Them Raise Them, a show to help busy, mindful growth-oriented moms stay informed and inspired as they navigate their daughter's tween and teen years. Tune in each week to hear from experts, authors, moms who've been there and here a curated selection of articles read with the author's permission, of course. With most episodes of running 20 to 25 minutes or less, if you like what you hear or you find something helpful in the podcast hit subscribe or follow. And I think it's actually a plus symbol in the upper right-hand corner on Apple Podcasts now. But yes, tell your friends and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I would so appreciate it. 

[00:00:57] So I've interviewed dozens of women for this podcast. And something I've noticed is how our personal growth and wellbeing are tied to becoming informed about a problem or issue. Then learning about solutions and alternatives. And for most topics, it's not a one and done kind of thing.

[00:01:13] Once you have all the info it still takes practice and reminders to remember your options and alternatives and keep your brain in a healthier and empowered headspace. 

[00:01:23] Body image and diet culture falls squarely into that category. Part of my brain knows certain things to be true. Like beauty is on the inside and images are photoshopped and focus on what your body does, not what it looks like, but I could never get enough reminders about this topic. 

[00:01:40] Because it is an ongoing challenge. So many people, especially girls and women. Are impacted by diet culture and beauty standards often not even realizing it. I see it affecting me and I see it affecting my girls. 

[00:01:54] This leads me to today's guest, Debbie Saroufim is a body relationship coach based in Southern California, with a background in personal training. She helps women learn to love their bodies, build an immunity to diet culture's negative messages and establish a healthy relationship with food through coaching virtual workouts and community, she aims to be a support system for her clients because when women are living a truth that doesn't involve good and bad bodies, they can be the best version of themselves. Here's our conversation. 

[00:02:27] I'm just thrilled to talk to you, Debbie. 

[00:02:29] Debbie Saroufim: Well, I'm very excited to be here. So, thank you. The feeling is mutual. 

[00:02:32] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: So let's dive right in. Tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a body relationship coach.

[00:02:39] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah. Well, my story, it starts sad, but don't worry. It ends okay. 

[00:02:44] So I was raised by a mom who is 72. And to this day she still has a very active and full eating disorder. So she raised me to have this viewpoint of food that I was put on my first diet at the age of six.

[00:03:00] It was a preventative diet if you will, so that I would not undergo the scrutiny that she went through. So at a very, very, early age, I was taught that there are good bodies and that there are bad bodies. And if you have one of the bad bodies, here are some things you can do to make it a good body. And so that by the time I was in high school, I had my own full fledged eating disorder.

[00:03:22] And I got help. I got into therapy and I started working with the dietician. And so I got rid of those behaviors, but I still hated my body. And every bite of food I wanted was sort of a calculated, is this worth it ? Will I feel okay after eating it? Is this worth the angst that I'm going to undergo for taking this bite?

[00:03:45] And I came out to Los Angeles to be an actress. I went to college out here, which is just sort of reinforcing that world of your body. And the way it looks is so important. I had a manager who called me at one point when she said, are you sitting down? I said, uh oh what's up? She's like, well, I'm having a really hard time with you because you're not pretty enough to be the lead girl, but I don't think you should gain a hundred pounds and be her best friend.

[00:04:15] So how do you feel about getting your nose done?

[00:04:17] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Oh my gosh.

[00:04:19] Debbie Saroufim: And, the messed up thing is that, um, I did, I got my nose done and I started going out on auditions. 

[00:04:26] And, all of this messaging of there is a good way to look is reinforced. And so despite my new nose, I was a very unsuccessful actress. I was not good at booking. I was good at going out on auditions, but not good at booking. 

[00:04:40] Um, and so when I was in my twenties, I decided to become a personal trainer to pay the bills while I could still go on auditions. And I thought it was gonna be perfect. Cause I'm like, everybody's just going to pay me and I'll just exercise and stay thin.

[00:04:50] And instead that's where I got to finally have that shift of perspective because I had all these different women coming to me, different shapes, sizes, colors, you name it. And all of them were sort of asking me to fix different parts of their body and I remember having the thought of like, when's she gonna realize my stomach's not right.

[00:05:09] And that's when I sort of had this realization, which now that I've had it, it seems so obvious to me, but it was a big realization of, oh wow. Feeling like your body is broken isn't a symptom of your body being broken, feeling like your body is broken, is a symptom of this very, very, very broken culture that we're living in.

[00:05:33] If we know that, then when we have that feeling of, I hate my stomach, I hate my stomach. I hate my stomach. Do we have to take the steps to fix the stomach? Or instead do we kind of work on taking the steps to fix the culture?

[00:05:52] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mhmm.

[00:05:53] Debbie Saroufim: Um, and so… 

[00:05:55] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I just got the chills hearing you say that. Yeah.

[00:05:57] Debbie Saroufim: So, full disclosure, I don't like everything about my body.

[00:06:02] I don't think you have to, so I–that's when I took a step back and decided to become a body relationship coach, and I wanted to help people make peace with their body. How do you have a peaceful relationship with your body? Because I think having a relationship with your body is like having a relationship with anyone else.

[00:06:16] You know, I compare it to my husband. He's fantastic. I think he's very sexy. He, sometimes he cooks, he's a hands-on dad, but he's horrible at waking up in the morning and I am a morning person and I hate it because it's like I have a third child and, for years, I tried to turn them into a morning person and we would fight. And those fights would spill over into other times of the day because he wouldn't have something done, you know, at three o'clock in the afternoon and I'd follow up with, well, you know, if you'd gotten up when I wanted you to get up then this would be done by now.

[00:06:48] And so there was just sort of this resentment. And we loved each other. Right. But this was an issue. And when I finally sort of recognize, you know what, Debbie, he's never been a morning person and he's not going to be a morning person. That's like trying to fit, like, the square peg into a round hole.

[00:07:04] Then we were able to start appreciating what he is, which is a night person who takes the night shifts with the kids. Right. And so I don't have to like that he's not a morning person, but I do still get to take care of what needs to be taken care of and not hold this resentment around it. 

[00:07:23] And so I think that that's the same about your body. You know, I don't like everything I see about my body. Some things that I see about my body are really frustrating. Again, I think that's more a symptom of the culture than it is of the fact that that's something wrong with my body, but I don't have to like everything to love my body and to know that my body is fine.

[00:07:46] And that these ideas and these standards that I have on what a body should look like is based off of really, again, this broken, patriarchal, white, all the things are like--

[00:07:59] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Centuries of messaging controlling women. 

[00:08:03] Debbie Saroufim: Centuries! Yes! So that's why I feel this way. Right? Not because there's actually something wrong, so that then the thought of.

[00:08:11] You know, I don't, I don't necessarily want to lead my life wearing only crop tops, but I also don't have to freak out if I had to. Right?

[00:08:19] Like it’d just be like, okay. Yeah, this isn't my favorite part of my body. Here you go. And it doesn't have to feel like its robbing me of the pleasures of life. I don't know how to escape it, even in the cartoons that my kids watch, you know, that the hero is always like this cute, petite little body. And the villain is always in a fatter body. And we're not actually saying that fat is bad, but we are kind of saying fat is bad. Right? And it's, and it's hidden in there and, you can't get away from it. So how do we best arm our children to not be impacted by the messaging that they're going to get. And so that's now what I do. 

[00:09:02] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: That’s what you–oh my gosh. You covered off on a lot of good stuff there. I love your journey. I think a lot of women can relate to things being told to them or things happening to them that sent that message, that your body isn't good the way it is, that you have to change it, that we have to conform to these beauty ideals.

[00:09:21] But one thing I wanted to touch on was your being put on kind of an eating plan or a diet at a young age. Your mom obviously was coming from a place of where she thought that's how she would best serve you–

[00:09:34] Debbie Saroufim: Best she can, doing the best she can.

[00:09:34] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Protect you. 

[00:09:35] Debbie Saroufim: Absolutely, absolutely doing the best she can. And it's tough, right? So the diets that I was put on, so I was you know, in the eighties. And I actually, I keep thinking I was a nineties child, but the first diet I was put on was in the eighties.

[00:09:49] So I was in that like low fat, low fat era. And so what I help a lot of the women and families that I work with, identify as where are your food rules? Because if you're talking to someone who grew up at my–my generation, our generation, you're going to find different scary foods, then you're going to find someone who grew up 10 or 15 years later, which is so interesting, right? It helps sort of break apart that hold, I think that the good food, bad food mentality has on you. Right? Because I know right now carbs are, carbs are bad.

[00:10:26] Except for when I was dieting, I ate tons of carbs because they were lower calorie and lower fat than the proteins. Right. You know, it's, it's interesting.

[00:10:34] And this is gonna sound like a tangent, but I use this example. I remember growing up my mom didn't drink any beverages that had calories. And she'd always say I prefer to eat my calories. And she said it when I was very, very young and to this day, I don't like super sweet sugary beverages.

[00:10:53] I love ice tea, but it has to be unsweetened. And I've gotten really used to diet sodas but I will never know if that, “oh, those are too sweet. I can't drink that" has to do with my own personal taste or if it has to do with the seed that was planted by my mother.

[00:11:10] I don't know if that was mine or if that was given to me, it's mine now. But I don't know if that was mine or if it was given to me. And so where are we instilling some of these fears in our kids, and, you know, what's weird about it is I think my mom's saying I prefer to eat my calories totally messed up. Totally messed up. But I'm also like, well, obviously like eating is so much more fun for calories, right? So we have these voices in our head. I'd like to give kids the ability to have a conversation between those voices, as opposed to what my mom did, which is just listen to the one voice.

[00:11:52] Cause I, I don't think that currently in this current culture it's realistic to just never hear that guilt or shame or never hear that questioning of like, Ooh, is this too carby? Is this too surgary? Is this too this? I think those questions are there. But I want to teach you how to have a real conversation with those questions so that you're not just sort of impulsively acting.

[00:12:15] So be nice to have sort of some ability to have more of your own say in the matter, as opposed to these feelings and tastes and things sort of put on you. 

[00:12:26] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah, well, I think something that you're getting at, which is so important about our relationship with food period is a self-awareness–like asking yourself, where does this come from? 

[00:12:37] Cause a lot of people probably just roll through life with that same saying in their head of, you know, I prefer to eat my calories or I don't eat after whatever time, but not really thinking, do I still believe this?

[00:12:50] Or did I, like you said, is this mine? Or I'm a carrying this because someone gave it to me? So I'm having an aha moment about food rules. I've never heard it phrased that way, but yes.

[00:12:59] Debbie Saroufim: And the thing that's interesting is that, so, I mean, again, I do this for a living and so my job is to live in the space of perpetually identifying my food rules and other food rules. 

[00:13:09] And here's something to remember about food rules, right? Is when you identify it as a food rule, it's just yours. Perhaps you share it with someone, right? Like your whole family might eat low carb or you and your girlfriends or something like that. But we have to remember that. Is it like an actual rule? No, this is, this is your rule, even if it's shared. 

[00:13:28] But then the other thing is, is that food rules adjust and change. And so if you identify it as, oh, this is a mean rule and you want to challenge it, bravo. And as you challenge it, there is likely going to be another rule that pops up to sort of keep the peace and keep the safety and your–so, I am perpetually discovering food rules that I have, and then I keep challenging them because new rules keep popping up. And it's not just about food, to be honest, I think you can have these rules in any way around your body or expectations that you have. I had lots of rules around exercise COVID hit and my rules… I felt the need to change my rules because I was perfectly content with how much I was exercising, but then COVID hit and the world shut down.

[00:14:13] And then I felt like, well, now I have to move more because I'm not going out of the house. And so then I like what was normally a normal amount of exercise shifted. And then as the world's slowly opened back up, I realized, oh, I've put a new rule in place that I have to work out more and it's not working as well because the world is opening up and I can't keep up.

[00:14:29] And so to just continue to challenge those rules, I did in my house, what I called lifting restrictions. I started bringing in all the foods that had for years terrified me. And it's only been recently that I have started realizing, oh, now that I have lifted restrictions and I brought back in all the things that I didn't eat because they were scary.

[00:14:55] Now I have to start reincorporating. If this is going to make any sense, some of the foods that I used to restrict with, because now I want to know I can choose all of them. As opposed to, I can't have that cause I used to have that when I was dieting. But the truth is any food is an acceptable food, right? 

[00:15:12] Again, the rules shifted. I needed to lift restrictions and these were the foods that I needed to eat to get me through that time. And now starting to bring some of the old. Quote, unquote diet foods back in, in a non diet related way. So the rules are going to keep shifting and to have patience with yourself and just awareness.

[00:15:32] The whole job is just to have awareness, right?

[00:15:34] And, and if you have a rule knowing, wow, I have this silly rule that I'm not allowed to have pasta at restaurants because it gives me anxiety. That's a me rule, but it also keeps me from having anxiety at restaurants. Okay, cool, Like we just get to sort of identify it and recognize it's not a law, nobody's going to come down and smite me if I, if I do this, but I'm going to feel uncomfortable. And then can we have the tools to talk to ourselves to sort of remedy that? Or do we not want to in that moment right?

[00:16:03] And then it just becomes one more skill set that we have, and hopefully that our kids can then have. 

[00:16:07] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yeah. I like how you talked about, you know, allowing everything to be an option. I had a body positivity expert on, and she deals with helping girls with their self confidence around their bodies, one of the things she said, which you hit on the head was there are no bad foods.

[00:16:25] Like there are foods that you might want to eat in smaller portions. There are foods that you may not want to eat every day. But all food is good food, it all has calories. And it's just a matter of our relationship with them. It's it's so important to have that awareness, as you said.

[00:16:40] Debbie Saroufim: It is! And to even add to that and say that as much as there are foods that you may not want to have every day, or you may want to have smaller portions of that that's allowed to change. Like moderation is one of those terms that it's culturally acceptable.

[00:16:57] And yet, it is a diet culture term because the question is, well, who decides what a moderate amount is, right?

[00:17:02] Is a moderate amount for me, the same as a moderate amount for you. And what if my moderate amount isn't the same as your moderate amount? 

[00:17:11] I just sort of want to highlight that piece because I still hear the word moderation in my head all the time. Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with it, except for, if you get curious and you start saying, what is moderation. We don't have a black and white answer and diet culture really sort of pulls for these black and white answers, right? It wants good and bad. It's good bodies, bad bodies, good foods, bad foods. This is healthy. This is unhealthy. And the truth is, is that we need to expand our definition of what healthy is allowed to be.

[00:17:43] It's mental well-being, it's physical well-being, it's emotional wellbeing, it's all of these things. So what can we do that can expand that definition into something that everyone can do, right? Of all shapes, sizes, colors, genders, abilities.

[00:17:58] It's sort of this diversity and inclusion because where you come from and what your privilege in the world is, is really going to impact what you consider a good food and a bad food. 

[00:18:11] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And expanding that definition of what healthy means. I think we so often tie in health with a look or it's just been culturally ingrained in us that. 

[00:18:22] Debbie Saroufim: Yeah. 

[00:18:23] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: It’s just been culturally ingrained in us. That healthy is thin and sinewy and muscly, and that's kind of it, you know? But to your point, similar to kind of moderation can mean something different to everyone.

[00:18:32] It wasn't until I started seeing it amongst friends who would eat exactly the same thing and work out the same and they have totally different bodies and get different results that you, you do realize you can't judge health on looks alone.

[00:18:46] Debbie Saroufim: Well, and the problem is, is that in trying to judge health and looks alone, you're missing a lot of ways to be healthy. I mean, I look back at when I was in the worst of my eating disorder in high school. I stopped getting my period for over a year because I was starving myself and I had like a perpetual migraine that lasted about six months, and went to the doctor and, they did the MRI and the whole thing, but nobody ever told me to eat because I was thin.

[00:19:17] So I was healthy, and just sort of missing the care. And then on the flip side, some of the people that I work with in fatter bodies, are going with legitimate concerns. And the doctor says, come back when you've dropped 50 pounds. And it's not fair that that person should have to say, what would you say if I were a thin person right now, would you be looking further? This cultural idea that healthy looks a certain way is really hurting people on all levels of the spectrum, because everybody misses out and I, I do want to bring up I use the word fat. I think it's really important to use that. Because I think that the word fat has been stigmatized and I think we find a lot of very cute and clever ways to say things that are fat, that aren't fat, like bigger bones or she's fluffy.

[00:20:01] I've heard fluffy. All of these sorts of things. Full bodied. 

[00:20:05] And what that really reinforces is fat's a bad word. And if you are fat, you're in trouble, so we'll call you something else. 

[00:20:13] And the truth is, is that everybody has fat on their bodies. And just like you said, bodies come in different sizes and shapes. But I was very uncomfortable using the word fat because for a really long time, I was taught. Fat's bad, fat’s unhealthy, lazy. Fat means you don't care about this, that or the other. And in not saying fat, I took that on as my definition of fat as well. So, I would challenge the families who are listening, the parents who are listening to use the word fat in a non-scary way. Use the word fat As if you were saying she got blonde hair, she's got blue eyes. She's in a fat body. There are so many different ways we can describe people. And fat’s–fat’s okay to use. 

[00:21:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Yes. Yeah. That thought of, fat is a neutral term. I have, I have to lean into that discomfort sometimes. Cause I also think there are other people that haven't come around to appreciating that fat is not something that's supposed to carry that kind of negative and pejorative weight.

[00:21:18] And so they hear you using it and I have this internal like, oh, am I going to be judged for saying the word fat, even though I know I'm the one that's kind of progressive in this.

[00:21:28] Debbie Saroufim: Right. I mean, I think. That's part of that's part of it, right? Is that it's hard to use the word because even if you realize it's not a bad word, there's a lot of the world that still thinks it's a bad word. 

[00:21:40] Knowing that you can sit in your discomfort and be okay, is very powerful. So I can sit in the discomfort of saying the word fat, again I know it's not bad, but we all have these snippets of fat phobic-ness in us because culturally we were taught to.

[00:21:59] So as much as I say, you know, fat is not bad. Full disclosure. I still get afraid of being fat. 

[00:22:05] And the reason I'm afraid of being fat is because culturally we villainized fat people and I'm working with some fat women who feel horrible about themselves.

[00:22:13] And I have to say, when I go out into the world in a thin privileged body, I am received very differently than they are. So I have like a new fear of being fat, not because fat's bad, but because I see how horribly fat people are treated and I don't want to be treated like that. Right?

[00:22:35] I know I'm better than that. The problem is, is that unfortunately fat's been shamed for so long that many of the fat women that I work with don't think they deserve to be treated differently because they're in a fat body. It's very interesting. I'm working with this one fat woman who is a Muslim who wears hijab.

[00:22:54] When she hears someone say something against her faith and community, she will stand up and she will say, here's why you're wrong. Here's why that's ignorant. But when someone says something negative about her body, she apologizes and that's a problem, but that's the cultural problem, right?

[00:23:11] I think this is where we get to be sort of advocates in the change of the culture, because I think something as small as starting to use the word fat in a non-negative way can, can go so far. That's something I have hope for the future generations to not have to undergo the way she is. 

[00:23:32] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: My conversation with Debbie actually went longer. So watch for another episode with her, where we talk about body image as women and moms, along with practical tips, for how to create a healthy relationship with our bodies. Both for ourselves and our kids. 

[00:23:49] Here were my top takeaways from this episode. 

[00:23:52] Number one, feeling like your body is broken. Isn't a symptom of your body being broken. Feeling like your body is broken, is a symptom of this broken culture that we're living in. 

[00:24:03] Number two, when you notice you have negative feelings about some part of your body dig deep and ask, is there something wrong with how that body part actually functions? Consider that you don't need fixing, it's our culture that does. 

[00:24:18] Number three, having a relationship with your body is like having a relationship with anyone else. You don't need to love every moment in everything about your partner to have a healthy relationship. Similarly, you don't have to like everything about your body to love it. 

[00:24:34] Number four, what are your food rules and where did they come from? Are they from your parents, friends, or even magazines? Once you identify a food rule at work, like no second servings or no bread. Challenge it and change it as needed as you and your life change. I think about what kind of food rules you may be instilling in your kids. 

[00:24:53] Number five, use fat, the word in a non-negative descriptive way to help erase the stigma around the word and push back against diet and thin culture. 

[00:25:04] Number six, in our culture it may be unrealistic to not feel guilt or shame around food and our bodies. But being able to unpack and push back against those, is key. Lean into an expansive definition of what healthy can be and look like taking into account your mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing. 

[00:25:25] To learn more about Debbie Saroufim, you can visit bodyrelationship.com and follow her @bodyrelationship_coach on Instagram. She also has a parent's guide on what not to say at bodyrelationship.com/parent guide. 

[00:25:40] You can find these links in the show notes for this episode as well. 

[00:25:45] I'm really honored to shine a light on all the guests I get to interview. Like Debbie, and I'm so grateful for how empowered I feel after they share their wisdom. I also so appreciate you for listening and showing up for yourself and your daughter by tuning in. Remember to share this episode with a friend. And if you're on Instagram, follow @knowberaisethem for quotes from wise women, reminders and tips, and a heads up on upcoming podcasts. 

[00:26:09] Thanks again for listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.