Tackling Tricky Friendship Scenarios // with Jessica Speer

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[00:00:00] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Hi, everyone. I'm Carmelita Tiu and welcome to Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them, a show to help at busy mindful growth-oriented moms stay informed and inspired. As they navigate their daughters, tween and teen years with most episodes running 20 minutes or less. If you're interested in hearing from authors, experts, moms who've been there, coaches, therapists be sure to follow or subscribe and follow @knowberaisethem on Instagram. 

[00:00:28] So a couple of months ago in episode 18, Jessica Speer joined us and shared her insights on girl friendships. Jessica is a mom of two daughters and author of the award-winning book. B F F or NRF, not really friends. A girl's guide to happy friendships. Her book grew out of her friendship program that strengthened social awareness and helps kids learn to navigate common struggles. 

[00:00:53] She has a master's degree in social sciences and explores social, emotional topics in ways that connect with pre-teens and teens. 

[00:01:01] Well, the feedback from Jessica, his episode was incredible. If you haven't listened to that, don't worry. You can find the link in the show notes or pop into your podcast platform and find episode 18. 

[00:01:12] Personally, one of my big takeaways from that episode was to be really mindful about your own triggers and experiences and try to separate your reactions from what your daughter is experiencing. Because if we overreact, our kids will stop opening up and sharing with us. 

[00:01:28] In any event. Clearly girls' and friendship is a hot topic. So I invited Jessica to come back and dive a little deeper into possible friendships scenarios. And explore how our daughters and we, as parents can cope and respond. 

[00:01:43] Here's that conversation. 

[00:01:46] Jessica, welcome back. I'm thrilled that you're available and open to sharing more wisdom with us when it comes to girls and friendship. So something I'd like to learn more about are friendship breakups. I don't think I've ever actually had tough conversations to break up with a friend... in some ways, I probably ghosted people. Um, in college, I can remember one specific person who our personalities didn't mesh and we hung out for a while, but then I felt like she was really wanting more of my time than I felt comfortable giving, and I had other friends I preferred spending time with and I, I hate to admit it, but I did kind of ghost her. And then eventually she stopped calling. So yes, let's dive in. Where do we even start? 

[00:02:35] Jessica Speer: Oh and I'm so glad you asked this because this happens, you know, there, it happens all the time. If you think about it, if you look back over the course of our lives and relationships, they have seasons. And sometimes, it's a perfect friendship for this part of our life and then something shifts and it's not so perfect anymore.

[00:02:50] So. So these changes happen. And I think sometimes because we are women and we feel compelled to have these open, honest conversations, we feel like we need to have this friendship breakup, but I'm pulling up some notes right now because there is luckily people that studied it. So there's this wonderful researcher.

[00:03:09] Her name is Emily Langan. She's a friendship researcher. Formerly with Wheaton college and what she found, in all of her studies, is that most of our friendships end more by fading away. Okay. So, so we can maybe let go of some of this guilt that we need to have this conversation. And what she found is that by allowing friendships to fade, it actually opens the door to maybe that friendship happening again, because it's really hard to have that conversation, that friendship, breakup conversation.

[00:03:43] In any way that goes well. So I'm not going to say you should never have the friendship breakup conversation, because sometimes you need to sometimes, you know, maybe you're trying to put some boundaries down and those boundaries are being crossed and, and we need to, you know, really have an honest conversation to let the person know that maybe we need more space or things have changed.

[00:04:02] However, the majority of time, we are letting them fade away, and sometimes that's the best way to handle that. So, what gets tricky for girls in friendships scenarios and this is, this is a tricky skill that they start to figure out in their preteen, their teen years, is often, kids are hanging out in groups, you know, so they found this group and there are some kids, maybe a girl in the group that they just can't stand, So what do they do? Um, what doesn't work well, but it's so common is infighting in the group and, you know, turning people against people. So, what I encourage girls in those situations is to learn how to navigate that one person in the group that they don't like so much without pulling other people in, you know, what, a skill that we all learn.

[00:04:47] You just think about our office settings. You know there's this person that we don't really love, but we learn how to navigate them and in a professional way in that setting. So the kids have to almost do this within their friendship groups too. They're not going to love every single person in that group.

[00:05:01] So how do they navigate that? And it might be such a tough situation that they do have to move away. But it might not, it might be just that they learn how to navigate that person and they still a part of this group. So this is a tricky dynamic. Yeah, That was a really long answer to your question, but there's a lot to it and it's an important skill. 

[00:05:19] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: As you were talking about not including other kids, all these vivid memories popped into my head of, you know, two friends or two classmates not getting along. And then the whispering begins and you sort of take sides. I suspect that some of that sharing that might include people into the, the drama or a conflict is human nature.

[00:05:42] We want community, we want to feel heard and understood. We want someone to kind of confirm our thoughts. But thinking that the flip side of that may not be the best outcome either, because it can spiral out of control. That's a really good reminder as well. That really sparked some curiosity in my head. Yeah.

[00:06:02] Jessica Speer: glad you used that word drama, because I feel like that is what is fueling drama. Um, so sometimes we think it's really mean-spirited but often what is fueling drama is girls are having some conflicts and they're looking for help and support. Going to other friends, to vent, you know, to do the stuff that we as adults might do with our very, very close friend.

[00:06:22] But at these younger ages, if they're going to another friend to vent and then that friend tells somebody else, you know, there in lies the drama. So a great conversation to have with your daughter is, "I know when these, these situation comes up, But you need a place just to let it all out to really just, just to talk.

[00:06:40] And I want you to think about who that might be. You know, if it's not me, you know, who can it be?" That's maybe not within that group. That's going to cause a bunch of turmoil in that group. So help them identify who can they really vent do. Cause we almost need that, you know, as, as women, we often process out loud with each other.

[00:06:58] So we need this opportunity to just let it all out, you know, start to think as we're talking about. Come up with what we're going to do or not do. Um, so they need that outlet, but can they find that in a place that's not maybe within that group so that it's going to cause a lot of drama. 

[00:07:14] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right. And would you suggest, or have you seen kind of success with girls finding other peers their age, or are you thinking more like a counselor or an aunt or a, a neighbor or someone that they trust but might be a little older. 

[00:07:31] Jessica Speer: Usually it's older, you know, occasionally a girl will connect with a friend and they have a really deep connection, a lot of trust at an early age. But often I find that that is happening a little later. They don't find that friendship where that, that really deep level of trust is developed. So maybe it's an aunt, maybe it's you as the mom, maybe it's the school counselor, but you know, they know it's Okay.

[00:07:55] They need to process this there's a lot going on. They need a place to do that, where they can find the support they need. That's not adding more to the whole situation. 

[00:08:05] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: And what if, there's probably a reason that there, like you said, there should be boundaries, um, what if there is someone that is a little bit toxic, you know, how should our daughters identify that and handle that.

[00:08:21] Jessica Speer: Yes. This is a great lesson in boundaries,  and this, of course happens a lot too. This is why I think we see so much instability and friendships as girls are trying to navigate this. There's, you know, they have this group and they're trying to be inclusive, but then they're so inclusive that sometimes, you know, there's girls in the group that. Yeah, it's really tough. And to be honest, you know, one of my daughters, coming into the pandemic was in this, they were trying to be super inclusive. They had this really, really big group, but it wasn't a great fit for everybody. In fact, it was so big that it was hard to even manage, like 

[00:08:54] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I can imagine. 

[00:08:55] Jessica Speer: Who do you, you know, so they're trying really hard to be inclusive. But it's getting really unwieldy. And for her, it was the pandemic was a huge relief. She's like, oh, thank gosh. You know, she got to back out of the social scene and really just, you know, nobody was seeing anybody. She got to really just stay connected with those she really wanted.

[00:09:14] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Uh,

[00:09:15] Jessica Speer: that's a great testimonial. Yes.

[00:09:17] This is so difficult because as girls are trying to be inclusive and be at school at the same time, this is really tricky. But what I see happening naturally over the course of relationships, especially into high school, is these groups kind of settle out.

[00:09:31] They peel off, you know, so if it's feeling really toxic, Your daughter might have to just how we started this conversation, phase out of that, you know, which can feel really vulnerable because the last thing kids want to do at the stage when fitting in is the most important thing is to not have a group. So that can be really terrifying, but sometimes that is the best solution.

[00:09:53] Maybe there's one other friend that they want. I can start sitting somewhere else at lunch or, you know, start doing some different things. Maybe not communicating in the group chat. Um, so this is where it's great to have a really steady caregiver or person to talk through these options because it is not easy, you know?

[00:10:12] And when kids start to pull away from a group, people notice immediately. So even that, even if they're trying to do this as peacefully as possible, sitting at another table could just create awesome drama Right there. You know? So, 

[00:10:24] so letting them know that, they are doing the best they can and this is not easy, letting them know it's okay.

[00:10:31] You know, they're just trying to figure out the situation and how to take care of themselves while also being kind to others. And this is complicated stuff you know, just letting them know that that's true. This is complicated, and I'm proud of you for, for trying to navigate this in a way that takes care of you.

[00:10:48] And it's also, you're treating this other person with dignity. 

[00:10:51] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm, mm, mm. love that. 

[00:10:53] What if a girl just doesn't seem to fit as well with this group that she's used to fitting in with? I guess I'm sort of thinking aloud here, but as girls change, maybe the personalities just start to shift a little bit and it might not be a group per se, but even one-on-one, you know, maybe you've had a friend and you've always existed in a certain dynamic and then one of them becomes more, daring, or, more of a risk taker and then the other, not so much.

[00:11:23] So I guess, navigating these shifting dynamics. If a girl finds friends pulling away, for whatever reason, maybe they're more extroverted all of a sudden and, and your daughter's more introverted. What are some things that might help the person who feels like they're being pulled away from.

[00:11:41] Jessica Speer: So someone's pulling away from like, say your daughter. Okay. Oh, I love this. Okay. Because this happens all the time too, you know? So, so as kids grow and they move from you know, relationships based on that play in proximity to relationships based on shared interests and deeper levels of acceptance. And that is the key.

[00:12:01] So deeper levels of acceptance. Sometimes if they have a, it's not a great fit anymore. Something I see a lot is, you know, some kids are really into, I'm going to put this in quotes, like. Yeah, we want to be in this popular group. And this popular group is this certain behavior and the other one is not so into that.

[00:12:17] So, so it almost does feel like this isn't actually a great fit anymore. We're looking for different things in this friendship. So, as parents, we can again say that, you know, friendships do have different phases and change over time, everybody's growing and changing. We can give others the grace to move out of friendships and not be friends with us because sometimes we need to move out of friendships, you know? Um,

[00:12:40] and so I think parents can remind kids, let's give each other, the grace and space to grow and change. You know, sometimes it isn't a good fit for this moment. For this moment in our lives. His friendship is not a good thing. You know, but what friendships do you want to pursue instead? What, people do feel like a really good fit and feel like they really do accept you for who you are.

[00:13:03] And if your, if your daughter or son doesn't have that, um, that's a good time to step in and help them find that sometimes it might not be at school and after school say they're really into art, maybe they can get into some art classes. So being in places and groups that they're likely to meet kids that have the same passions and interests, and then, you know, so that's what we can do is help to connect them.

[00:13:27] Don't you know, start to, worry that, oh no, my kid has no friends, just start pulling your resources. If you are really worried about isolation in your, in your child, it's a great time to check in with their teacher or the school counselor just to give them a heads up. Um, but there's things you can do, you know, what, what can they do to start to meet kids that, that may have that connection that they're looking for? 

[00:13:47] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Right. This something you said about checking in with teachers and, helping them find other groups. Something that came up was, how do parents identify, you know, if their child is someone that feels they may be excluded. How do parents identify whether that exclusion is really just a phase of friendship and just personal dynamics versus kind of toxic behavior that might be happening?

[00:14:15] Jessica Speer: Yeah. 

[00:14:16] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I, how do I, I don't know, what are ways we can kind of help our daughters or feel within ourselves that our daughters aren't being pushed around or, or maybe there is some behavior happening that I should be helping my daughters unlearn because are they being exclusionary?

[00:14:33] You know, but also toeing that fine line of, well, yes, we want to be inclusive. We want to be supportive, but you don't have to be friends with everyone and you don't have to put up with bad behaviors. 

[00:14:43] Jessica Speer: Right. Yes. And this is so tricky because it's so conflict is often confused with bullying. 

[00:14:50] Um, and so bullying bullying just to be super clear is it's intentional. It's pretty aggressive. It's repeated. And there is usually some sort of power and balance, you know, social power, physical power. So those things, intentional, pretty aggressive, repeated, most everything else falls into the conflict bucket.

[00:15:12] And so what you described as really common, there might be a student that has a quality that is driving everybody crazy, you know? So, so this, so this student's journey is to kind of start to have an awareness of this. What they're doing is really hurting a lot of their relationships, you know? So if you're worried about your child being the one excluded, it's, it is a great chance to check in with the teacher and, you know, cause we don't see what's happening sometimes on the ground within their peer groups and say, are you, are you seeing anything that, I should be aware of that, that we should be aware of as a family, that we can really help our child with this.

[00:15:49] Um, just seeing if there is something. That maybe they need some help with, so some of those social skills to help them connect with their peers. But also watching carefully, is it actually a situation of bullying where it is pretty one directional, there's a power imbalance.

[00:16:04] So, you know, teachers, counselors can help figure that out. Um, so those, all those situations are really tricky. I think for parents, it's just as, much as possible stay really grounded, realize we never have the whole story, you know, there's often something else going on there that we're not seeing or understanding.

[00:16:22] So our best, you know, thing that we can do is try to get a deep of an understanding of the situation as possible. Um, you know, so we can really help our child through. 

[00:16:33] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: mm, this. So pithy and, and so much, goodness. Thank you for walking through all these different questions I had. Like, what if, what if, what if, because you know, if our daughters haven't experienced it already, they will likely stumble into that dynamic at some point.

[00:16:49] And, like you said, being able to show up in a way that isn't just reactionary, it isn't based in our own personal experiences, is the goal.

[00:16:58] Jessica Speer: Yes. And, you know, they'll make mistakes along the way as we do, you know, and we learned from those, we, we learned from those big, Ah, gosh, I wish I hadn't said that or done that, you know, so note to self I'm going to do that differently next time. So it was so fun to talk with you and I do love unpacking these really tricky situations. Cause that's exactly what they are, you know? 

[00:17:20] And so just that awareness that, yeah, this is really tricky. Let's let's think through this, I wonder what we could do or what you could do in this situation. That's my favorite question. I wonder I wonder what that's about. I wonder what your options are here, you know, so keep that one in your back pocket. 

[00:17:35] Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: I'm so grateful to Jessica for letting me pick her brain and throw these hypothetical scenarios at her. Here are some of my key takeaways. 

[00:17:47] Number one friendships often fade away. In fact, research shows that most of our friendships end this way and that's okay. It actually makes it easier to reconnect later. If you find a friendship is fading. Accepted as normal. Try not to see the growing distance as a problem. Or internalize it as something bad about you or the other person. 

[00:18:09] Number two, encourage your daughter to navigate conflicts and personality differences without pulling too many other people in or asking people to take sides. While it's natural to want to vent and be validated sometimes talking to too many people or getting others involved can make a situation spiral out of control. 

[00:18:28] Number three. Help your daughter find someone that she can talk to. Sometimes it's someone older with a different perspective. If it's not you, maybe it's an aunt, an older cousin, a teacher, or a therapist. Someone they can talk to and feel heard by who maybe isn't part of the friendship dynamic that's at issue. 

[00:18:48] Number four. If your daughter does feel like she's encountering toxic behavior, help her establish and stick to her boundaries. It's hard because girls often want to be included and liked by everyone. But encourage her to think about what's best for her. And that may mean distancing herself from someone in particular. This is a scenario where it's great to have that older confidant to talk through possible options and outcomes. 

[00:19:13] Number five. If someone is pulling away for your daughter. Remind her that friendships have phases. Everybody is growing and changing. 

[00:19:21] And just because she's not close to you now doesn't mean that she won't be later. Give each other, the grace and space to grow and change. Encourage her to try new activities and find a new connections with others. 

[00:19:34] Number six, if you're really worried about isolation in your child or that your child may be the victim of bullying, do not be afraid to check in with the teacher or school counselor to give them a heads up and get some additional insights. 

[00:19:47] Number seven. Remind your daughter, that friendship can be complicated. It's not easy. And you're proud of her for trying to navigate things in a way that prioritizes her wellbeing. While also treating others with integrity. 

[00:20:02] And number eight. As a parent, try to stay grounded. Realize we never have the whole story. Just try to get as deep an understanding of the situation as possible. And come from a place of listening and acknowledgement. Not necessarily fixing. 

[00:20:18] A big, thanks to Jessica for showing up again for us. If you're interested in learning more about her book or are curious about social, emotional development, friendship, and parenting topics, visit her website jessica speer.com that's Jessica S P E r.com. There you can sign up for a free monthly newsletter and new subscribers receive a PDF of the friendship pyramid from BFF or NRF . These links are in the show notes as well. 

[00:20:44] Thanks so much for joining today. We are all making choices with our time and I'm humbled and grateful that you're spending time listening to this show. Remember if you're on Instagram, follow @knowberaisethem for quotes and reminders to keep you grounded, informed and inspired, and if you liked this episode, Please subscribe, share it with a friend and leave a review on apple podcasts or Spotify. 

[00:21:06] Again, totally grateful for you, and I applaud you for listening. And here's to strong women. May we know them, may we be them, and may we raise them.